Cracking the Code on Multi-Gen Leadership: From Gen X to Gen Z: Effin Jamalludin (Head of People at Singlife)

Effin Jamalludin: 00:00:00

As an organization coming from the HR space, we also need

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to deliberately create opportunities for the Gen X to be interacting,

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engaging with the Gen Ys, the Gen Zs.

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Only then, they can understand them better.

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And I think there's two things.

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Two key critical competencies that you need to have to be successful as

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a manager, whether you're Gen X or any level, one is empathy, putting

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yourself in other people's shoes.

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Second thing is adaptability.

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If people want this way, can you adapt?

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Can you pivot to make sure you address and understand the needs?

Dorothy Yiu: 00:00:30

Welcome to the HR Impact Show, where we have honest

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conversations with people leaders about building great workplaces.

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My name is Dorothy.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:00:39

I'm the CEO and co founder of EngageRocket, and I'm

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your host on the show.

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EngageRocket is a HR technology and advisory company that leverages

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on data to help improve employee experience from hire to retire.

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Today, we're joined by Effin Jamalludin.

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He is the Head of People and Organizational Development at

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Singlife, where he leads recruitment, L & D, Organizational Development,

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as well as System and Ops.

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We're excited to delve into experience and his insights in leading

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multi generational workforces, as well as leadership development.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:01:15

Welcome to the show, Effin.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:01:16

It's such a pleasure to have you here with us.

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For those of our audience who may not know you well, you have

Dorothy Yiu: 00:01:20

such an interesting background.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:01:22

So tell us more about how you got started and what got you to where you are today.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:01:27

My career has taken a bit of an interesting journey.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:01:29

A long, long time ago, I started off my career as a psychologist in prison.

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So not recognizing you is a good thing.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:01:37

If I recognize you, it's a different conversation.

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Anyway, I used to oversee the adult violence team, which means anyone who

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came in with any high risk violent crimes, whether it's murder, gang

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related offence, they would see me and my team either for assessments,

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counselling, psychological intervention.

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One day, this is about four years later, I thought, I've worked

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with the toughest of the toughest.

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Yeah, these guys are murderous, right?

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How hard could it be to work with corporate folks?

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And then I made that switch from doing clinical work in the prisons into the

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corporate side, started off in consulting.

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Fast forward till today, I still think it is a lot harder to work with corporate

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people, like my colleagues, like myself, like you, than it is working with inmates.

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It's a, always joke, but I've stuck with it.

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So that's been my journey.

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Since I joined the corporate world, I've been lucky enough to be working in the

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industrial organizational psychology space, the IO psychology space.

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I started as an analyst, right?

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But working with senior stakeholders, doing board succession, working

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with C suites, working with board members, and I think it's given me a

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lot of breath in terms of the work.

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I was very, very conscious when I did consulting.

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It was really to get exposure to different industries, different levels of

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stakeholders different countries in fact.

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The plan was always to be working in house in industry.

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So when I got the opportunity, that's when I made that switch.

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Also because COVID came and, business class flights you can't get anymore.

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Everything's done online.

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So the nice hotels are not there anymore.

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I joke about it.

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I think the world of consulting has changed and I think a lot of

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organizations tend to focus more in house rather than on that consulting space.

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So that's my journey today.

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I head the talent and organization development, sub function in Singlife,

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which means I oversee things from your strategic talent attraction, your L&

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D, org development, as well as some systems and people innovations project.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:03:38

It tickled me when you said that it's actually a lot harder in the

Dorothy Yiu: 00:03:43

corporate setting than it was, back when you were working in the prison service.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:03:48

What's the key difference, but also any similarities or learnings,

Dorothy Yiu: 00:03:53

okay, let's not say similarities but learnings that you have taken from

Dorothy Yiu: 00:03:56

your time in prison to then consulting and then into the corporate world.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:04:00

First and foremost, my clients today get to go back home to

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their families after we have any sessions.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:04:07

Clients being employees?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:04:09

Yeah.

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Today it's more employees for Singlife.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:04:13

Of course, in prisons you can't, right?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:04:14

You have to go back to your cell back then.

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So that's the biggest difference.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:04:19

Also, the other difference is that when I was a prison psychologist.

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Of course, there was less focus on the commercials, top line, bottom line.

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I think once you're in the corporate space, all these things matter.

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Those are the two biggest difference.

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But in terms of what's similar, I think the drive for results is still there.

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It may look different.

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The outcomes, the targets, the goals are different, but the

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drive for results is still there.

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The best practice, the need to implement best practices into, whether it's the

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HR space or in prisons, the clinical intervention space, that's still there.

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But I think what's also key, it's stakeholder management.

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And back then my stakeholders were different, you were dealing

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with, my clients were inmates.

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My clients were, of course, some of the prison officers

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government agencies as well.

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You learn to deal with people of very diverse backgrounds, with

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very diverse needs, and then you can translate that into.

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People you're working today, and it's how do you build rapport?

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How do you try to understand their needs?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:05:17

How do you have conversations and discussions?

Dorothy Yiu: 00:05:21

Just out of curiosity, What actually got you started

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even in the prison service right from the very beginning?

Dorothy Yiu: 00:05:27

There must be something that called out to you to, work in the

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prison setting as a psychologist.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:05:33

I've always been fascinated by people.

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At a young age, I thought, you know what, I'm quite good with people.

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I understand people.

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People seem to like me a little.

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So it makes sense to move into psychology.

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That's when I moved to the clinical psychology space.

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It's really that fascination about understanding what makes people tick.

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As well as what influences people to want to do what they do, right?

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And that's why I became a clinical psychologist.

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And then, now in the HR space, it's the same thing.

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It's the whole fascination of people, what motivates people.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:07

It's just in a very different setting.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:09

So that's why I decided to jump from psychology into the world of HR.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:06:15

On the same thread, we know that you're also a

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certified strengths coach.

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I had a background back in Gallup.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:06:21

I was with Gallup for five years.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:06:24

Just curious to know what is your top five strengths and how do you

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use them in a daily setting today?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:30

I should know this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:31

I've been coaching for a number of years now, six actually.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:34

Let's see.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:35

Competition is first.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:06:37

Interesting.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:38

Yeah.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:38

And then it's strategic.

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Yeah.

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Followed by the individualization and then relator.

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And the last, number five would be analytical.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:06:48

And how do you use those strengths on a daily basis?

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How do you coach people to use their strengths on a daily basis?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:06:54

I think the strength that you have, are so powerful that

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they influence not just what you're good at, but your preferences, the

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kind of work you enjoy, the kind of environment that you enjoy being in.

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So when I coach them, I ask them to look at how your strengths could be

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utilized in a setting that maximizes your efforts, that when you go to work,

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you enjoy what you're doing, and you're able to become a multiplier of results.

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Simply because, CliftonStrengths principle is, the more you focus on

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what you're good at, the more likely you become a multiplier of results.

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So that's how I normally coach the folks.

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Competition for example, I am extremely competitive, right?

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I used to do competitive sports when I was in school.

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You always want to be the best.

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Same thing in school, university, academia, or even at work.

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You just want to be the best.

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Either known for being the best, or if you can.

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There's some form of measures or metrics.

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You want to be the best there.

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So that's how has propelled me or driven me that desire to win.

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However, I also realized that strength can be a double edged sword.

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I am very competitive, but sometimes I can be a sore loser.

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So a strength, when overused, can become a derailleur.

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So sometimes when I do coaching with folks on using the Clifton

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StrengthsFinder, I also explore how this strength has contributed to some

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results that they're not as happy with.

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It's a useful tool.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:08:20

It helps you understand yourself better.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:08:23

So I want to tap on your experience.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:08:25

At Singlife, the population demographic or the employee demographic are mostly

Dorothy Yiu: 00:08:29

millennials and you're actively also recruiting more and more Gen Zs.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:08:33

EngageRocket, we recently launched our 2025 HR Outlook Report.

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And within that report, one of the trends that we found is that while there's a

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lot of focus in the last few years on, how do we better equip the Gen Zs, the

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strawberry generations, the millennials, we cannot neglect our leaders.

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And now what we recognize is that the Gen X generation is actually taking

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up more than 50 percent of our global leadership positions, which I believe

Dorothy Yiu: 00:08:59

it's probably the case within Singlife.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:09:01

Yeah, it's the case with us as well.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:09:02

So your stats is actually reflective of what is in Singlife at the moment.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:09:05

So I want to understand from your experience, how can

Dorothy Yiu: 00:09:07

organization better prepare these generation of Gen X in managing a multi

Dorothy Yiu: 00:09:13

diverse, multi generational workforce?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:09:15

I think first and foremost, the core of it here is to be

Effin Jamalludin: 00:09:18

effective leaders, the senior folks, the Gen Xs, as you mentioned, they

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need to be interested in wanting to understand people they're leading.

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The whole top down thing doesn't work anymore.

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Simply because of the majority of your workforce today and then three years

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from now will be your millennials.

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With all the gen z's, I don't know whether they appreciate me called strawberry

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generation because they bruise easily.

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They'll be starting to come into the workforce as well.

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So you need to be interested in this.

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And I think when I say interested, as an organization coming from

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the HR space, we also need to deliberately create opportunities

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for the Gen X to be interacting, engaging with the Gen Ys, the Gen Zs.

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Only then they can understand them better.

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And I think there's two things.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:10:07

Two key critical competencies that you need to have to be successful as

Effin Jamalludin: 00:10:11

a manager, whether you're Gen X or any level, one is empathy, putting

Effin Jamalludin: 00:10:14

yourself in other people's shoes.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:10:15

Second thing is adaptability.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:10:17

If people want this way, can you adapt?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:10:19

Can you pivot to make sure you address and understand the needs?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:10:22

So a lot of organizations say, Hey, you know what?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:10:25

I get my C suite, my CEOs to do town halls.

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You engage everyone else.

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That's just one person standing in front of the stage,

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speaking to all the employees.

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Half of them are going to be working from home anyway, because you don't

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have space anymore in today's context.

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That doesn't really build engagement or interaction.

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It's just a one way communication.

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Your Q& A, how many people can actually partake in that Q&A?

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You have a time limit for that, right?

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So in Singlife, we have a mentorship program.

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For example, we have a high potential program for employees called a STEP,

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a Singlife talent experience program.

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And we also have a management associate program, where people selected for this

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program, they get paired up with mentors who are in the leadership group, whether

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you are in the C suite or the C minus one.

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It allows for the engagement.

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Of course, from the mentee's perspective, you get to learn from your mentors

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who've been there, done that, can share that nugget of wisdom in terms

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of how you navigate the organization, navigate your role, or even your career.

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But then, there's also this thing called a reverse mentorship.

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When you're a mentor to someone a lot younger than you are, a different

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generation, you learn from them and you start understanding, hey, you know what,

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these people think very differently.

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It's a one to one setting, but it allows you to understand a bit more.

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And when you understand that person, you also start seeing, maybe that's how

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people of this generation would think.

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You use them as an opportunity to better understand the bigger population.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:11:52

I can also give an example.

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I had two interns in the past.

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They're back in university now.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:11:57

Queenie and Sherilyn.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:11:59

One of their conversations sounded like this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:01

BBG, you slayed the prezzie.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:05

You really ate.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:07

That does not make sense to me in any possible way at all, right?

Dorothy Yiu: 00:12:11

That's hilarious, I'm sorry.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:12:12

That's so funny.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:14

Yeah.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:15

And that's a real conversation!

Dorothy Yiu: 00:12:16

What does that mean?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:18

For real.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:19

BBG is just like baby girl.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:21

They call that, they're comfortable calling that, right?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:23

Didn't make sense to me.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:24

And then slayed, then did really well.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:25

Her colleague, my team, one of the interns did a presentation to

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the bigger HR leadership group.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:31

She did a good job, right?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:32

So it's just complimenting, you slayed, it means you did really well.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:36

Prezzie presentation.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:38

And then literally, she did this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:40

Ate.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:41

Ate stands for great.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:42

I would not have realized that, right?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:45

When said that to Sherilyn, there's only one reply from Sherilyn, she said, bet.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:50

It means, yes, mic drop, I agree with you, bet.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:54

It's interesting.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:54

I started getting very curious about how they think, what they did, and

Effin Jamalludin: 00:12:59

I actually got them to sit down every day, walk me through this

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:04

Gen Z vocab, help me understand.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:07

This is a generation where they want everything being done quickly.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:10

It's reflected in the words they use when they communicate with one another as well.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:14

It's just efficient for them.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:16

And for us, it's just, my gosh, what is going on here?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:20

This is a different language.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:21

I know it's English, but it doesn't make sense at all.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:13:24

I'm just curious because you have a clinical psychology

Dorothy Yiu: 00:13:27

background, Do you notice is there any generalization we can call on?

Dorothy Yiu: 00:13:31

The different generations what are their barriers or motivators that

Dorothy Yiu: 00:13:35

you can pick out for each generation?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:37

Oh, this is the time where I sit someone on the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:39

couch, I lie down and tell them, tell me about your childhood.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:42

A lot of how we are in different generations is the things we're

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:47

exposed to, the environment we were exposed to growing up.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:50

There's that nature element, but there's also that nurture element.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:54

If you look at the Gen Xers, they crave for stability.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:13:59

They value loyalty.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:01

Why?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:01

In the workplace.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:02

They were working in a time where some of them went through

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:05

the economic financial crisis.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:06

And they just wanted stability.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:08

They were willing to work long hours to do what it is that they expected to do.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:14

The expectation is you stay in a spot or in a role for many years.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:18

It's not even recognized, you're expected to do that.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:21

And then you have the millennials, they were in school

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:25

during the financial crisis.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:27

They've seen their parents losing their jobs.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:30

Only the best get to keep their job.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:31

So they grew up having this mindset where, I need to be the best.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:37

That competition element, that achievement element.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:40

And if you look at how they operate today, they're always in competition.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:45

They're always trying to be the best.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:46

In fact, Time magazine in 2014 labeled the Millennials as the me

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:51

generation, and they called the Millennials spoiled and narcissistic.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:14:57

But it's just how you were brought up, you were exposed to this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:01

And then you move on to the strawberry generation as we call them.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:04

They grew up in a world where instant gratification is what

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:08

they've known all their lives.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:10

Nobody goes to the library anymore.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:12

We used to have a library card.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:14

You go to the library, you do research, you take a book, you loan it out.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:17

Now, they are from a generation that you Google everything.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:20

The answers come almost immediately.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:21

You want to go shopping, you click.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:23

Amazon Prime does it in a very short time, so they are so used to instant

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:27

gratification and they get bored easily.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:29

They need to be constantly stimulated.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:31

These are people born into technology.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:34

So they pick up technology a lot faster.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:36

Now you start thinking and all the demographics, you have your Gen Xs,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:39

millennials, and you have your Gen Z, when one values loyalty and you have this

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:44

group of people who are competitive, who want the best for themselves, and then

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:49

another one who just change their minds once they lose interest in something.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:53

So the whole loyalty piece thing in organizations for three to five years,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:55

you don't get a lot of that anymore.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:15:58

Look at any tech firms, when you look at their CVs, it's always one year, one and a

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:01

half years, two years, and then they move.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:03

The whole notion of you need to stay in a company three to

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:06

five years no longer exists.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:08

So you need to learn to share that.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:09

And then about the working late, working hard, you expected to work long hours.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:13

For the millennials, if I can get something done in five hours,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:17

why do I need to stay past the eight, nine hours I'm expected to?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:22

It adds no value to anyone.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:23

I'm fiddling my thumbs on my desk.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:26

Why am I doing that?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:27

So these are all points of tension for the different groups of people.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:31

Back to your question, to understand how our upbringing, the exposure

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:35

culturally or economically, it shapes the way we think, it shapes how we

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:43

expect others to behave, and when there is a mismatch between expectation and

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:50

how another group behaves, you get that misalignment, you get that tension, and

Effin Jamalludin: 00:16:54

it causes a lot of misunderstandings.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:16:57

I love your answer and I'm bursting with questions.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:16:59

Back to the trend that we identified, which is how can we

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:01

better support our Gen Xs to manage this multi generational workforce?

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:06

Noticing that this misunderstanding or this divide, this gap it's

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:09

getting bigger and bigger.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:10

How can we better either help our Gen X identify these early warning signs

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:15

or are there any practical strategies to help them bridge this divide?

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:19

And my second question is, to your point there was a time where, oh,

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:23

five years, six years, very good.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:25

It's seen as very good.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:26

Sometimes when I speak to recruiters, they, actually prefer breadth than depth.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:31

So how do we counter, because there is ROI to every single hire, if they

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:37

don't stay for a certain amount of time, it's actually a loss to the company.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:41

So what retention strategies have you seen as practical,

Dorothy Yiu: 00:17:45

efficient in managing that as well?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:17:47

A few questions there.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:17:48

The first thing you're asking is.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:17:50

What strategies that organizations can have.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:17:54

It has to be both ways.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:17:55

I think you can't just expect the leaders in the group, the more experienced

Effin Jamalludin: 00:17:59

folks, it's not a one way thing.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:01

The Millennials also need to be interested.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:04

But, on to your point, I think in this era, you also need to

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:09

be more focused on outcomes.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:11

If I take a step back here, as leaders, you always need to

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:15

understand your team members.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:16

If you're managing a team with diverse groups of people from different

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:19

generations, you need to understand that each person is unique and they bring a

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:22

different set of qualities to the table.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:25

They're also expected to be treated differently.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:28

However, if you're managing a massive team, you cannot be individualizing

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:32

how you treat every single one.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:34

There needs to be a very clear team charter or a very

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:37

clear set of expectation.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:39

Then you leave room for 10, 20 percent to do a bit of that individualization.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:43

So that's one way.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:44

But what I've seen work before, you talk about how, there's an

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:48

ROI to recruitment and hires.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:50

I've worked for an organization before where you are measured

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:54

on outcomes every two months.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:18:57

You're expected to deliver a specific goal.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:00

They use OKRs, Outcome Key Results every two months.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:04

Imagine this in one year.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:06

How many bi months do you have?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:08

Six of them.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:09

That person has achieved six different significant goals over the one year.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:14

And this is very different when you have goals that stretches across

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:18

one entire year, you achieve this number of goals across 12 months.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:23

Productivity wise, the person who has been in that company for a year may have

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:28

achieved a lot more than someone who just has goals measured every 12 months.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:33

I've seen this work.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:35

I've also seen the challenges of this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:37

Two months is sometimes not enough to deliver something significant enough.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:42

So I think organizations need to be a bit more understanding, You need to

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:46

assess what kind of industry are you in.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:49

If you're in tech, where things move really quickly, maybe it makes sense.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:53

If you're in an organization that is maybe construction, it's a bit different.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:19:58

Things move at a very different pace.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:00

However, if you stop focusing on clock watching, you stop

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:05

focusing on the need to deliver.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:08

Rather you break it down into outcomes, key goals that we need to achieve within

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:12

a very specific time, I think it'd be really helpful in terms of measuring ROI.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:17

ROI is just what is being achieved, return of investments and that can be

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:21

measured in outcomes, impact that's being created by the individual,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:24

the employee, for the organization.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:27

If he or she achieves lots of different big significant goals in

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:31

a span of shortest span of time, won't you be getting your ROI then?

Dorothy Yiu: 00:20:35

Instead of focusing on the person staying for longer, what you're

Dorothy Yiu: 00:20:39

suggesting is actually setting clearer goals, with more well defined time

Dorothy Yiu: 00:20:44

frame, perhaps shorter, and maximizing that person's potential to hitting those

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:48

outputs.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:49

And if I was a recruiter, I'm moving away from looking at, three

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:52

years, five years, in a CV, people are looking for achievements.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:20:57

Those are things that you should look out for when you're hiring someone,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:01

especially in this element where in startups, you need to move fast.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:06

You need to achieve goals really quickly.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:08

You cannot have someone who needs one year to deliver one thing.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:13

It doesn't work for you.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:14

You need people who are very agile, who move at speed.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:18

And if you see someone who CV fits with what you are trying to achieve, why not?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:23

Startups, the 0 to 1 is different from the 1 to 3, different from the 3 to 5

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:27

in terms of your scale of operations.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:31

And when you are in a more established organization, why not hire someone

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:36

who is very efficient in getting things done, rather than, oh, he's

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:42

been in the company for 5 years.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:45

You could be in a place for five years and achieve nothing at all.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:48

You're just comfortable.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:50

You just don't really like change and go through day to day, keep your head down.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:55

I do what I'm supposed to do.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:57

I don't challenge the school.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:21:59

I don't rock the boat.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:00

If you want people to challenge how things are done to get

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:03

things to be moving faster.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:05

Doing the same things over and over again, does not get you

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:08

a different set of results.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:09

If you want people to do transformation.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:11

Then you need to hire people who are of that DNA.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:14

And the traditional goal setting looks at six months, one year.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:18

Mid year review, end of year review.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:20

All right, you set your goals and mid year review is always a pulse check into

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:25

whether you're on track or off track the rest of the year, which means like

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:29

it's a long stretch for that one goal.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:31

You break it down, maybe not every bi month, not two months.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:35

Maybe every quarter, maybe in the six months mark, then you can shorten the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:40

length of getting things done, achieving big things in a span of time that maybe

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:47

pushing or driving more results than just waiting for the traditional one

Effin Jamalludin: 00:22:53

year window for performance review.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:22:56

I want to circle back to also something that you said just now

Dorothy Yiu: 00:22:59

about the managers needing to have empathy, and needing to be interested

Dorothy Yiu: 00:23:04

to manage multi generational workforce.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:23:07

How do you do that in Singlife in terms of, either recruiting for these

Dorothy Yiu: 00:23:12

traits or skill sets within managers or developing them within the managers?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:17

Ideally, you're recruiting for people

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:19

who showcase these traits.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:21

And I think your interview process needs to be very robust.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:23

If you've worked with your executive search firms, your Korn Ferry, Heidrick

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:29

Struggles, Egon Zehnder, Stuart Spencer, they have a lot of very

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:32

robust methodology from the earlier psychometric to competency based

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:36

interview, to simulation activities, to understand all these things.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:40

And when it comes to hiring, especially at the senior level, two things you look at.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:45

Competencies.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:46

Track record is expected.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:47

I mean you won't even get to the selection process if you

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:50

don't have the track record.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:52

Competencies.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:52

What are the competencies that's necessary for the role?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:54

And then you look at what I call the agility piece, which probably looks

Effin Jamalludin: 00:23:59

at your empathy, adaptability, a bit more like a core competencies values

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:06

rather than functional competencies.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:08

So you hire for these people because then you're going to get leaders

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:13

who show and demonstrate empathy and that ability to adapt really quickly.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:17

So that's one.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:18

Hiring.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:19

Great.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:19

You already hired the kind of people that you want.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:22

Of course, sometimes you are building from within or developing from within.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:27

I'm not saying people don't have empathy, but some people a lot

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:30

more empathetic than others, a lot more adaptable than others are.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:34

You need to have programs in your organization that encourages this

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:39

from a development perspective.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:40

This is where L& D come in.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:42

They come in to help with upskilling.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:45

Now, on the other side of things is, You also need to make sure, you can

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:50

develop, but if people don't see, Oh, we talk about empathy, we talk

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:54

about adaptability, but so what?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:24:57

Put it into formal mechanisms like your performance process.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:02

If you start measuring whether someone's showcasing empathy or that

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:08

ability to adapt, then it sends a very clear message to the managers, the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:13

leaders, everyone in the organization.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:14

Hey, we take these two values or these competencies very seriously.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:18

You need to start developing it or you are not going to be rewarded.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:23

It may be detrimental for you if you don't do this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:27

The value of that, you get empathetic leaders who understand

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:32

team members, who can leverage and get the best out of team members.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:35

You get leaders who are very adaptable, and that only works

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:39

well for the organization.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:40

It has to be something that is taken seriously.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:43

You need to embed this within your culture.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:46

And culture is in the things we do, the things we see, how we go

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:50

about our work in the organization.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:53

From the hiring process, to the performance review process, to

Effin Jamalludin: 00:25:56

the development process, I think all these things play a part in

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:00

encouraging or inculcating the empathy as well as adaptability bit.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:26:07

You're talking about peer reviews or 360

Dorothy Yiu: 00:26:10

reviews as part of performance.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:12

So organizations actually measure values.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:15

In SingLife.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:16

Our values are ACEIT for short, it is agility, collaboration, empathy.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:21

You mentioned we have innovation and trust.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:24

Agility, similar to what we talked about, which is adaptability.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:28

How do you adapt, pivot to change?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:31

So we look at this as our values.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:34

We're very serious about it.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:36

It's the DNA of a Singlifers.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:39

So that's how you put it into your culture.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:43

But we also measure values as part of performance review.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:47

Thus the individual showcase agility as defined by our behavioral descriptor.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:54

So what agility is to us in Singlife.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:26:56

So that's how we actually make this real for things like this.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:27:00

And also send a very clear message of how important this is.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:27:03

So I want to stay on this topic of leadership and tapping on your experience

Dorothy Yiu: 00:27:07

as a psychologist, as well as your experience in Korn Ferry, we talked

Dorothy Yiu: 00:27:12

about a lot of traits that we want to see in leaders, but what about red flags?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:15

Basically, one of the things, if it doesn't align

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:18

with the kind of values your DNA as an organization and you're in the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:22

interview process, selection process, these things come up, that's red flag.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:26

But one of the more common ones is when I'm looking at hiring or selection,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:32

track record is very important.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:34

The results you've achieved in the past.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:36

For example, if you constantly, in any organization you work for, your

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:42

team members are leaving and there's a very high attrition rate in your team.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:46

That is a big red flag.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:49

What does it mean?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:50

It shows that maybe you are delivering results, but at what cost?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:55

And there is a cost to attrition in any organization.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:27:59

Can we afford hiring different team members for you every six months?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:03

So that's a big red flag.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:05

Second thing is, you have people who are just very good at interviewing.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:09

You need to start looking at, hey, this guy's talked a big game,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:13

CVs look very impressive, let's check, your reference checks, what

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:18

exactly has the person achieve.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:21

Because reality based on results then backs up whatever they have talked about.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:28

So when you've talked a big game, but you've done nothing or you've

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:31

not really seen through the result.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:34

You may have started it, but you don't see through whatever you've started.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:37

So these are some of the red flags that we look for.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:41

When I ever do this, some of my colleagues who are still in the clinical

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:44

space, or even some of my interns who do psychology will ask, Oh, you did

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:50

a lot of clinical work, psychology, you did assessments for different

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:54

people, like psychopathy, for example.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:57

Do you look for all these things?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:28:59

It sometimes becomes old habits die hard, and you're so used to it.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:02

I am certified to assess for psychopathy, and there are a list of things, like

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:07

superficial charm, glibness of tongue, of course track record for maybe

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:13

being a bit manipulative, like lying, all those things come into play.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:16

I don't outrightly look for these things, but I do assess for such things when I

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:22

assess people in the corporate world.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:24

Back to the point, are you delivering on whatever you've talked about?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:27

If you are, then it's not so much as you hyping yourself or bloating

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:31

your achievements, because you really have that track record for this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:29:35

So these are probably some of the things that I look for in people.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:29:40

You talked about the fact that to really send a message of how

Dorothy Yiu: 00:29:43

important values are, and you talk about empathy as one of your values.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:29:47

You do incorporate those e behavioral statements as part of the performance

Dorothy Yiu: 00:29:51

appraisal, for regular reviews.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:29:53

So if knowing that, how I rate someone actually affects a performance,

Dorothy Yiu: 00:29:58

how do you ensure that people are honest during these reviews?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:01

You can never be sure if people are honest but this is where you

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:06

cannot just rely on a singular data point.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:09

You cannot just say, okay, manager, rate the employee, then that's done.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:13

Imagine this, if the manager is totally smithen.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:18

Yes, there's some objectivity, but there's also that

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:20

subjectivity, I like this person.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:21

I enjoy working with this person.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:23

Or I like him as a person in general.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:25

I want to keep the person.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:27

You put very glowing reviews for that person, and then the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:30

opposite can also hold true.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:32

Cannot stand this person.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:34

Very good at their jobs, delivering all the results, but I just want

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:38

to get rid of them from the team.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:41

You're going to get really scathing reviews in their 360 or manager feedback.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:47

Because you only have one data point.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:49

So whenever you're doing a performance review, best in class would be you

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:53

have multiple different data points.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:55

You have your manager review, if the person has a team members are

Effin Jamalludin: 00:30:59

expected to give the review as well.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:01

And then you have people they work with.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:03

This is the 360 approach, there has to be that professional partnership.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:08

So you need to assess, SHR or as a manager, you need to go, are the feedback

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:14

providers relevant to this person?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:17

And the other thing is anonymity, confidentiality that creates a safe

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:22

enough space for people to give real authentic feedback to that person.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:29

And I think not all organizations have reached this level yet, simply

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:35

because if you're not real in the feedback you're giving, when the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:39

person at the end of the day gets their performance review or gets all the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:43

feedback that's being given to them, they go Oh my gosh, I am a superstar.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:46

I just do exactly what I've been doing for the last one year.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:49

And I'm set.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:50

But if the reality is not that, then you're not helping the person

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:53

you're not also helping yourself.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:54

If you're a team member and you do this to them and they go oh my gosh

Effin Jamalludin: 00:31:57

my manager is terrible but I've said extremely amazing things about them.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:32:03

You're gonna suffer you bear that consequence so I think that realization

Effin Jamalludin: 00:32:08

that feedback is valuable, it is important it should be objective

Effin Jamalludin: 00:32:13

that goes with training and I think a cultural shift or a mindset shift not

Effin Jamalludin: 00:32:18

always easy for a lot of organizations, but if they realize the value of

Effin Jamalludin: 00:32:23

it, maybe that switch might happen.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:26

I love that.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:27

First of all, I love it also because even within EngageRocket ourselves,

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:30

we run value alignment assessments.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:32

We tested it out, including it as part of performance appraisal, but I

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:36

think what I love most is that we also include this thing called a question

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:40

section comment, where if you rate a 1 or you rate a 5, you actually can add a

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:45

comment to justify why is it a 1 or 5.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:48

Because what I've also seen is that it might be true.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:51

If I give you a one, it might actually, not because I don't like

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:54

you, but it might actually be, I think you can improve in that area.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:32:57

And by allowing a comment, I think that also adds a lot of

Dorothy Yiu: 00:33:00

context to the quantitative scope.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:02

That's a good point.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:02

Your one and my one may be different, even though we've got

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:05

very clear definitions of it.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:06

And that's where the calibration needs to happen.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:08

And that's why justification needs to come into play.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:10

If you're giving someone a one, a two, or a four or a five, Why is it this way?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:17

Because your five may be at a higher bar than my five.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:21

Because at the end of the day, performance is about rewarding your employees fairly.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:27

If this person contributes this much and you're really out of five, and this

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:31

one's actually more of four than a five, the money's going to look different.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:35

So I think this is where calibration also happens.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:39

And you need to educate the employees during the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:41

performance review process that.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:43

Head of performance reward in Sing Life, he's very clear that

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:45

if you don't justify, we will not give you that five or that four.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:52

Then it sends a clear message that if you want to rate someone that

Effin Jamalludin: 00:33:56

way, I have to spend some time giving my justifications very objectively.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:34:02

So switching gears a little bit, and we ask this of all

Dorothy Yiu: 00:34:05

of our podcast guests if you were to imagine the ideal workplace of the

Dorothy Yiu: 00:34:09

future, what would you say are some of the key traits of that workplace?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:15

We talk about flexibility.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:17

COVID has accelerated the whole thing.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:20

Pre COVID, you wouldn't even entertain the fact that we'll be working from home.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:25

In some organizations, you can be in Bali, when your office is in

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:28

Singapore, but you can still be effective and you can still be contributing.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:33

So a workplace needs to consider that flexibility to allow employees to be

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:38

able to work in a space where it allows them to win at work and win with life.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:44

That's what employees are looking for now.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:46

In fact, when we go into graduate recruitment fairs, a lot of

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:51

what the students ask us is, so what is your flexible work

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:56

arrangement in the organization?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:34:58

So Workplace of the Future has to consider this because when your employees are

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:03

mentally and physically 100 percent or they're doing really well, it

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:07

reflects in the quality of the work.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:09

So flexibility is one.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:11

You don't need everyone to be working in the same space.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:13

Then don't.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:13

It's also cost efficient for organizations.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:15

You don't have to rent big office spaces.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:18

You save on that.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:20

Second thing, engagement.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:22

Whether everyone's in the office or whether you're working from home, you have

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:25

a 100 percent work from home policy, you need to put in place a lot of mechanisms

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:31

that encourage engagement and interaction amongst different team members,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:36

people in the organization, because employees need to feel like they belong.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:42

Engagement creates that sense of belonging.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:44

And when you feel that you're part of the organization, are part of the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:48

organization's success and failure.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:50

It'll be surprising what they will do to make sure that they deliver their

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:54

best because they know the organization will succeed if they contribute.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:35:58

So I think engagement becomes important.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:00

Last, technology.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:01

Technology cannot be the end outcome unless you're in a tech firm.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:06

Technology is an enabler to success of the various business.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:12

Technology needs to be very integrated with what the organization needs

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:17

to deliver, the business goals the different departmental KPIs.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:21

So I think, a workplace of the future would be flexible working environment,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:26

engaged workforce through many different engagement activities and initiatives,

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:31

as well as technology that enables, technology that accelerates results.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:35

So those for me are the three key things that I would hope a workplace

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:39

of the future would look like.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:36:40

Okay, so now I'm going to move on to a fun and

Dorothy Yiu: 00:36:42

easy part of the interview.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:36:43

I'm going to ask you a couple of rapid fire questions.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:36:46

So because you're a certified CliftonStrengths coach, I've got to ask.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:36:51

Out of the 34 strengths, do you have a favourite and a least favourite?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:56

I thought this was an easy question.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:57

That's not an easy question, yeah?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:36:59

Wow, the politically correct answer would say all of them are

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:03

important, and I value all of them.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:06

But you know what?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:06

I'll go along with this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:09

Okay, so the one that I value the most, wouldn't say favourite, but

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:13

value the most, would be achiever.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:16

Because when individuals are stronger and achiever, of course, all my

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:22

Gallup coaches out there are gonna go, no, you can't do this, right?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:26

Strengths are different.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:27

You can get to the same goal with different strengths, but hear me out here.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:31

Achievers are very goal oriented, they know what they're aiming for.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:35

And there is a willingness to spend the extra hour after work or weekend, Or

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:42

do what it takes to get to the goal.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:44

I value results.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:45

I value outcome driven results, driven leadership.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:48

So for me, it resonates most strongly with me.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:52

The other one, lesser favorite wouldn't say least favorite, I think inclusiveness.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:57

Why?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:37:58

You've been in meetings where you get someone inviting every single one to the

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:04

Sort of meeting and you go like, why?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:06

Why is he here?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:08

Why is that person there?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:09

If you're not adding value to the conversation, you don't

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:11

have to invite them over.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:13

Oh, you know what?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:14

You don't want to hurt people's feelings.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:15

Wow.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:16

I'm really going to get like some comments on this.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:18

I think that for me, it's good to be inclusive.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:20

You need people like that pushed too far, then is it objective?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:26

Why are you bringing people on board that shouldn't be there?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:30

So for me, that, in certain instances, doesn't work.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:34

Same with all the values, but these two are the ones that come to mind.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:38:39

I have both in my top 10.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:38:41

Achievers in my top 5, higher than my inclusion, so that's good news for me.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:38:46

Okay, next question.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:38:47

What's one book you would recommend to all leaders to read?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:51

So one book is Coaching for Performance, it's by

Effin Jamalludin: 00:38:55

Sir John, I forgot his last name, but it's in its sixth edition already.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:00

If you've got that many editions of a book, it must be really useful.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:06

Why it's good?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:07

Because it's a bit like a handbook for managers at any level, whether you

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:10

are a first time manager, you are a seasoned leader of an organization, they

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:15

have a lot of insights of value that you can take away from reading them.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:19

So it's a very coaching based.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:23

Hence the title coaching performance.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:25

That's one, but I'm going to throw another one here.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:28

The Art of Seduction.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:29

It's by Robert Greene.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:30

Greene looks at a lot of different leaders, whether you're

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:33

looking about Benjamin Disraeli or you're looking at Sukarno.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:37

Of how they engage people as leaders.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:41

So you get to learn different ways of influencing others.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:46

And a big part of leadership is about influencing.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:48

How are you standing in front of the room?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:50

How are you one-to-one?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:52

It's interesting because the way it's written, it's sexy, how they tell about

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:56

the story of different leaders, and then they extract the different ways

Effin Jamalludin: 00:39:59

that different leaders charm their audiences, whether it's an entire

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:03

nation or a small group of delegates.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:07

So I think those are the two books for me that is quite interesting.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:10

You should read it if you can.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:40:12

And my final question would be, if there's one thing

Dorothy Yiu: 00:40:15

you wish employees understood more about HR, what would it be?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:20

Only one thing, okay.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:21

I think not everyone is an HR expert.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:25

I've worked within consulting or being in an internal HR role.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:29

A lot of colleagues, peers, they tell you, Oh yeah, HR should

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:32

do this, HR should do that.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:34

Good.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:34

Feedback is good.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:35

Input is good and it's valuable, but you also need to respect the experience and

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:40

the expertise of the HR professional.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:43

They have had that the track record.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:46

And they know what they're doing.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:47

So sometimes also listen and try to understand this is why your HR colleague

Effin Jamalludin: 00:40:55

or your HR leader has implemented this or has shared this specific because

Effin Jamalludin: 00:41:00

they probably would have known how it contributes to the enterprise success.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:41:04

They also know if you don't do, this is what's going to happen, right?

Effin Jamalludin: 00:41:07

Listen, respect where they're coming from, and also share your

Effin Jamalludin: 00:41:12

input, but don't take over, because not everyone is an expert in HR.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:18

It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, Effin.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:21

Thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom, experience.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:25

I hope you enjoy yourself as well, and thank you very much for being on our show.

Effin Jamalludin: 00:41:28

Great, thank you so much.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:30

To our listeners, thank you so much for tuning into this episode.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:34

If you found the conversation valuable, do like and subscribe to our podcast

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:38

on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of your favorite podcast app.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:44

You can also learn more about the show and subscribe to our community

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:47

at engagerocket.co/HRimpact.

Dorothy Yiu: 00:41:51

I'll see you in the next episode.