How to Build Inclusive & Experiential Work Cultures: Vanessa Iloste

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And do you want this relationship to be transactional or do you want this relationship to be experiential? I think that if we behave in a way that is transactional, we are going to create employees who are going to treat us as employer transactionally. So the more you treat me as a robot, the more you treat me for my very limited skills in a very limited job description that is not allowing me to see the end to end process. The more I'm going to give you the minimum requirement because I'm not feeling valued and not feeling respected. I don't see the big picture. And you are treating me like a robot.

elationship. So experiential [: 00:01:00

I think it's more like this fundamental relationship that we need to think about very deeply in order for us to have the best workplace of the future.

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years now, having [: 00:02:00

She brings a wealth of experience navigating complexity in multicultural backgrounds. And we're very excited to dive into her experience today.

Welcome to the show, Vanessa. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. You've had a remarkable, almost three decade career in HR, would you say, in the retail and luxury sector. Could you walk us through some of your career highlights, and what are some of the most memorable experiences in this last three decades?

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So I would say that I was very lucky because I've been hired by the LVMH group 23 years ago in Hong Kong, which is very dear to your heart in the Hong Kong city. And I moved from Japan to China for that role. I was originally in a role that was more corporate.

For seven years but I had something in me. I really wanted to become a full fledged, what we call an HR generalist in our jargon. So instead of having a specialization, I was actually providing the business with support.

you have this kind of stupid [: 00:04:00

And after that I started my journey as an HR generalist. And this is what makes me very happy every day. Because these roles are extraordinary whether you are an HR business partner for 50, 100 people, or you are an HR, a head or CHRO, which I'm not today, but you know, a person with 53, 000 employees, like my boss, you are actually close to the business.

And this is the part that I love. And so understanding the business, understanding the operating model of what I'm working on and getting to know it is a great experience. So every time I started a new project, I actually got this kind of kick in my belly about learning about the new operating model, and then I was very lucky to work with extraordinary leaders.

we are the extension of the [: 00:05:00

So this moment is a moment that I found also very interesting. Reaching alignment is also a moment that is very interesting. So every time we get into big transformations, I love transformation. I love change management. These are the moments where I found also a lot of happiness, a lot of joy.

s that are very important to [: 00:06:00

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One of them as you know, is Vanessa Teo. She's one of my very best friends and I'm so lucky to have her in my life. And it's a very welcoming community. And it's a great community where, because we are very focused on learning, we encourage people to learn. So I think every community is a bit like that, but for us, learning is one of our strengths, is one of our capabilities.

le will be most of the time, [: 00:07:00

We have a big team of engineers in our company and I just tried, I just knocked on the door and I sent him a message and he invited me in Pungol to have a coffee with him. I still remember every time I go in Pungol, I think of Ronnie and I'm like, Oh, this is the place he took me for coffee because it feels moving for me that someone took off his very precious time and he's very busy man to actually teach me about, the tech, HR in tech, what is the difference, how it works.

It was a couple of years ago and I still think of him very often. So I would say, you know what, just push the door and try to find where you can bring your expertise. Most of the time you have knowledge that you can actually transfer. It can be, for instance, if you know a product, you can become a product training specialist.

you're very good at teaching [: 00:08:00

And I think that is just the question of asking how, and I'm sure the person who is hearing you is going to say, let me think about something a couple of years or a month later, you are going to be invited to, to join the HR department.

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And I also know that the both of you actually have the podcast yourselves called Career Transitions. Already What, four seasons?

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One of the only researchers we know on the topic is Herminia Ibarra, who is very famous, and she has worked on the concept of working identities. And I don't know her personally, but her book is very famous, it's called Working Identity. And what it says, which is very inspiring in your case, Dorothy, is the fact that in all of us, we have many working identities.

e belong only to one working [: 00:10:00

It doesn't matter what you are thinking about, but you believe that this is actually going to happen for the rest of your life after you graduate or whatever school you are in. The truth of the matter is, the more it goes, the more the world is changing, the more we are going to have to reinvent ourselves many times.

So some of our guests, they have already reinvented themselves three or four times, and they have discovered another second, third or fourth working identity in themselves. And what she says, which is really powerful, I found this, you need to do a couple of very small experiments to be able to realize that you have this working identity.

er much more than me. I do a [: 00:11:00

Some people are talking about portfolio carriers. And in this idea, even if you talk, and I say it with a lot of respect because I have tremendous respect for them. Even if you speak to a Grab driver or a Gojek driver, they will tell you that, they have discovered something different about themselves when they start driving and when they start taking care of their customers.

munity service. So it's very [: 00:12:00

Some of them, they resented and it's okay, once they have finished, they can move on. But some of them, they actually enjoy doing it and it can open the doors to, maybe hospitality, tourism, F&B, something very different compared to maybe the original job that they used to have.

urself. So it's a little bit [: 00:13:00

For instance, I started with this example with Ronnie and my good friend, Ronnie Tan. Because I'm not an engineer, I wanted to talk to an HR head, a CHRO in the tech to be able to understand what actually makes a difference between a good HR professional in tech versus an HR professional from other industries.

this coffee with me. He was [: 00:14:00

And it was for me, but other people are different, better than watching a film or a video or learning from a book, because I have this affinity when it comes to my learning. So this is something also we are learning from the Career Transition podcast is how do people learn to actually adapt themselves through another organization.

The more intentionality they will have, the stronger they will be. So this is something very powerful that we can all apply every day. So how much intentional are you about your learning? Because every quarter most of us, we need to discover a new field or a new area. I'm learning a lot of things right now that I didn't know before.

ugh uncertainty and compared [: 00:15:00

I need to find a way to have this metaconsciousness and to look at myself doing these sessions of, and these facilitations and almost like giving myself feedback after the session to actually tell myself, what I've done well and what I could do better.

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That meta consciousness that you talked about. It's very much almost, it's like self awareness, right? Having that self awareness and also the courage to experiment and try different things. And then also on the working identities, I definitely need to read that book.

That sounds like a very interesting book, but also on the working identities, it really reminds me that how all of us are actually a work in progress.

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how has some of them and you [: 00:16:00

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you to have. The collective [: 00:17:00

And so I've been practicing, what I've learned in Japan for many years and that was being people oriented, focusing a lot on the consensus, trying to create the consensus when I'm not the person who is passive, I'm very proactive, but how to make people around the table, facilitate conversation, make sure that people are comfortable is a decision we make.

And then I realized that. There is always a tension between practicing this harmony and having people expressing themselves with radical ideas. And sometimes you are wondering, what is the best direction? What is the right direction around, is the harmony and the consensus always good?

h HR or softer HR person and [: 00:18:00

So when she started telling me about that she wanted to be unapologetic herself. It was a big shock at the beginning. I was like, wow, she's so brave. I never thought of being unapologetic myself. Most of the time I apologize. It's the other way around. I say, I'm so sorry.

I'm so tall. I'm so big. I'm so inferior, I'm not the person who is really feeling comfortable at the beginning to be that confident in myself. Because I feel like sometimes it can be difficult for, especially in our region because people might feel like, Oh, you're not giving them space and you are not including them.

But then I realized there are times where if you have really done a good job in terms of consulting people. And you have been a good leader in terms of getting the perspective of, and she's a very inclusive person herself. She's really inclusive. And there is a moment you need to make a decision.

yourself. And I've learned a [: 00:19:00

And I am very grateful to her because I've learned a lot from her and I think it would stay with me for a long time.

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What are some of the strategies you have, for example, to really ensure that there is full alignment continuously?

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nning, because I didn't know [: 00:20:00

And that's normal. Because I believe today, if I tell you what to do with EngageRocket, you will look at me and say, what do you know about being an entrepreneur? And I say, you have never done that in your life, so don't judge me. And you would be right to say so. And I would be wrong to give you any form of advice.

earning or knowledge that is [: 00:21:00

And then to really think about, okay, now that she knows now that I feel she knows I can actually start sharing about some of the pain points. So the business gives you the door that will be open for you to be able to ask questions. And then when you stop asking questions, you will get into the pain points in a transformation, for instance, it's an example.

And then from the pain points, you can move together with the team into co creation of solutions. So these are the things that I've learned, what do I need to have at the beginning that is the minimum level of understanding that is going to give me that form of credibility, that is going to help me unlock and help facilitated the unlocking of some conversation.

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I can see them when I visit. I love visiting the store. I do that on a regular basis. And I can see, in the back of the store, there are two ladies chit chatting while we're having the conversation with the leaders. And I can see that one is showing the other one a technique or a product or range. .

Catch them in the act. [: 00:23:00

I want to say thank you to you for bringing Jasmine to Sephora or to the organization and really catching them in the act. So lunch and learn, you need to celebrate opportunities for coaching. You need to celebrate whatever you see every day, like sometimes I take pictures, like the other day I was taking picture of one of my colleague she was in front of the store and she was helping the other ones to change the window.

And she had put on the floor some very simple pictures of things that she needed into a certain order. And I took picture of them and I said, can I take pictures of you? Because you look so happy together, working together. And one was teaching the other. This is something that you can do at your level.

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So global learning week is another way. Creating new program of training is another way. There are many ways, but every single time, people that are actually having this courage because it takes a lot of vulnerability to share what you know, and you want to celebrate them, you want to encourage them.

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actually having a project in: 2004

still remember because it was: 2004

We are going to invest in these people, we are going to bring them the proper environment for them to experience the culture so that when they come back to Shanghai and Beijing, they can create the same culture in their own stores. I was really touched by that. It was incredible, the store managers, they were really valued and they need to be valued and they were really welcome.

ooker brand. And I was like, [: 00:27:00

but I thought, rice cooker in: 2004

So they had thought about buying a rice cooker for the apartment we rented for them. And that's for me, it was very touching. It was this kind of detail that tells me that people are really putting yourself in their shoes and welcoming them and embracing them and just accepting them with their culture and their identity.

yeah. And when I came back in: 2017

So the same way we celebrate the learning, when we see D& I opportunities, we celebrate together as well.

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It's going to be so different. I think that we will be surprised when we have our own grandchildren, the two of us, and they will come to visit us and they will share the stories from the workplace. I did a piece of work which was absolutely extraordinary with two future risk consultants.

rying to project ourselves in: 2030

So I think they were already, and it was before, or just at the time of COVID, there were a lot of trends related to, of course, the Flexi that we are talking today. But the most important one was actually, what is the relationship you have with your employer, what kind of relationship you are going to build with your employer?

And do you want this relationship to be transactional or do you want this relationship to be experiential? And that is very fundamental to everything we are going to do to build the workplace of the future. I think that if we behave in a way that is transactional, we are going to generate is a little bit like the same like parent to parent type of parent to child analogy.

ted skills in a very limited [: 00:30:00

And The ones who are going to have great workplace are going to create experiential relationship. So experiential relationship means you are thinking at least in the midterm. You are not short term minded. You are already thinking maybe three, four, five years, six years, because maybe the young generation would like to experiment a lot of things.

That's okay. But you want at least to have the perspective of if I hire you, I'm going to give you an opportunity to stay with us. You like it, you don't like it, it's up to you, but at least for five, six years, so that I can help you to grow, to develop yourself, to get closer to your dreams, and I'm going to invest into this relationship.

want this relationship to be [: 00:31:00

This is my dream, and because they feel the connection with you and they feel the inspiration from you. Maybe some people call them, Hey, come and work for me, but no, because I really want to continue my journey with Dorothy. She's so exciting. She has having 10 ideas a minute.

So she is the person I want to follow. So the more connection you create with them, the more you engage them, you were talking about having town hall, reflection, conversation. The more you are going to create this connection that is really, really meaningful for them and that is going to stay with them even after they have left your organization.

this concept of employer and [: 00:32:00

I don't want to be used. I don't want to be abused. I don't want to use or abuse you. I want both of us to feel that this contract is honored on both sides if we write the contract tomorrow, I want you to feel comfortable with this contract. I want to feel comfortable with my side of the contract and how contractually we create a win-win opportunity. This is really what I think is going to be at the heart more than, is it three days a week that people are going to work or are they going to work from the beach? I think it's more like this fundamental relationship that we need to think about very deeply in order for us to have the best workplace of the future.

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EngageRocket, we are all about elevating the employee experience. And I always say this to everyone that joins EngageRocket, you have to think about it that we are not only just impacting employees life.

They take their experiences at work home. So we are also actually impacting their families. We're impacting a lot more people than we can see, and what we're doing here is also to not just help organization. Oh, I just want to get a number and then, check the box or we look at every employee as just a number on a sheet, right?

It's really about how do we use data to fully understand the different segments within our organization to cater not just a one size fits all solution, but to cater solutions, initiatives, programs, whatever it is that tailors to also the life stage or whatever that the employee is going through. right?

Someone [: 00:34:00

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love brand, which is Sephora [: 00:35:00

So, you know, we can see in the markets where we have people who might not have a lot of purchasing power. They really enjoy using Sephora Collection. And this is usually their entry point and I want to embrace that and I want to celebrate that because there is nothing wrong with using a brand that makes you happy.

So Sephora Collection is really my favorite brand and today on my face most will be six or seven different pieces of Sephora Collection.

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pp, you will find actually a [: 00:36:00

So you actually look at your foundation, you look at the bottle, whatever you use, you put the details of that bottle into the program and they will give you, and I can tell you the other day I had forgotten, so I redid the exercise. And I order it online and I received like the perfect concealer.

And I'm so happy. I had been advised by one of my colleagues about the number, but I had forgotten it and yeah, it works very well.

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kan family from Indonesia, a [: 00:37:00

And I decided that I wanted to learn about the Batik in Indonesia. So I have read in the last two weeks, something like three books about Batik in Indonesia. So some people say, it's a little bit too much, you don't need to read these three books. But it gives me a lot of joy because when I do that, I open my mind to the beauty of this world.

To the richness of all these people and what they do. And I think it makes me fundamentally happy. So I would say curiosity is. So if I ask you a lot of questions in a meeting or an interview, in a cocktail, do not feel scared and do not feel overwhelmed by me.

It is because I care and it's because I want to get to know you really in depth. And I want to get to know the beautiful human being you are.

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I truly [: 00:38:00

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You can also learn more about the show and subscribe to our community at engagerocket.co/HRimpact. I'll see you in the next episode.